deficit would go up. i mean, we're talking about a very punishing thing that will affect american people who had nothing to do with what they're trying to object to or deal with. >> you oo >> you're absolutely right. congress spent that money. they spent it. whether they liked it or not, they were the ones who spent it. but it's more important than that. it's what you point out. the stakes here are really high for the republican party. far be it from you to advise the republican party. but if i did, i would say stay away from shutting the government down. stay away from letting the debt ceiling not be raised because those are things that the american people will hate. they'll hate us defaulting onli blame you for it. they'll hate us shutting the government down. if you want to make a stand, make it in the sequester. the sequester has a lot of things that are painful to the democrats and the president. that's the place to plak the stand. and, look, everyone agrees, every rational person agrees with michael